James S/ Andrew M

I have been enjoying your back and forth on these issues.

Both of you make some fine points.

However, I think I can save you both some time:

The case that each of you is trying to prove ...

James S: That the USA is a shiny beacon of democracy, freedom and liberty for the whole world

and

Andrew M: That if any country should be considered a shiny beacon of said, it is in fact England.

...is $%^& daft.

James s - You first

The US's high ideals are immediately compromised at the drop of a hat.

The $%^&y beacon of pain and suffering that the USA has given to the world is the CIA's School of the Americas

Basically, US public sector workers have trained Latin American megalomaniacs "population control" techniques (like torture) there for decades.

The very specific and antidemocratic goal of the SOA is to prevent socialism taking hold in South America with this stunning logic:

*Anything* is better than socialism.

If you allow people to vote, they may choose socialism, so don't give them the vote until you have killed off all the lefties.

As for Americans themselves: I have lived and worked with Americans for years. I still work with Americans on a daily basis. I can say the following with my hand on my heart:

They are frequently very accomplished professionals, but seldom well-rounded individuals. Unless you want to talk girth.

Furthermore they are frequently utter $%^& that understand nothing, but insist on tell you exactly what they "know" - which is to say, what they believe.

I have an almost endless list of prize statements made by colleagues that made me bite my lip ... one of my favourites being the topic of sweetness of European potatoes came up over lunch - yes, thrilling - apparently much sweeter than US potatoes. When one asked why, another answered that he had noticed that potatoes and sugar beats are frequently grown near each other in Europe.

The table nodded sagely in agreement. $%^& $%^&s.

Above all the level of ignorance, even of non potato related matters, was just blinding. Including inability to distinguish between film/ tv actors and their characters.

If I could put the average American in the context of this board: liam would fit right in. No adjustment necessary.

Americans are taught to believe, whatever they are told, and be happy.

Not to question.

The only time you should question is if someone has a liberal, or worse still, socialist agenda.

Then you question everything, because everything they say is automatically a lie.

It may surprise many people to hear that Tony Blair is a bit of a hero in the USA.

If you tried to tell them that he was the head of a (nominally) socialist government they would think less of you for trying to trick them into believing something that couldn't possibly be true. Couldn't possibly.

In short: if you judge the USA by its ideals it will never come up short.

The whole nation has a unifying political cult.

But judging any people on the basis of their ideals and not their actions is daft.