Yes it is a great shame the first Americans, who today detest Colonisation, in fact entered a country from abroad which was already fully occupied, then removed those same people almost completely, then proclaimed that country the "Land of the Free". Its a strange thing to celebrate?

Yes but those settlers were English!
At that the USA did not exist, however I suppose that the full extermination of the native Indians didn't start until after the War of Independence so we Brits can wash our hands of that one!

Very tenuous argument Sim. The Founding Fathers were partly British but it was they who started removing the Native Americans. The War of Independance happened partly because the "to be" Americans were far more anti Indians than were the British Government. So America was formed on a gross injustice, not something ever to be proud of?

I thought the war of independence started because the Americans didn't want to contribute towards the cost of us fighting France on their behalf for the previous 50 years.
That and they wanted to be free - free to keep slaves and commit genocide against Native Americans.

Hail Satan

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate...we can not consecrate...we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government: of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth

James the Yanks saved our bacon in WW2, and indeed probably most of the world. But is more recent years they have gone wrong. You can count them - Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (twice), Afganistan. Not enough thought of the consequences of military action - no exit strategies - fighting risky asymetric warfare - just not enough thought. Sadam apart from rhetoric never posed any risk to the US or UK, there was no need for the war - it was bound up in unwise policies by the US that so many died.

Louis,

There is an anti-American visceral reflex that too often kicks in when Europeans debate America, and even though numerous rationales are presented to substantiate such feelings- wars, culturelessness even the bizarre view that all Americans are somehow dumb – these claims remain largely mindless.

The United States is a fantastic embodiment of the human spirit and the best vehicle for its expression that mankind has yet come up with, and the words below are extraordinary, the reason that we take for granted now is because for the best part of the last century Americans have sort to ensure our continued liberty:

"and that government: of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth"

Although I understand if you nearly got bombed by them you may have a slightly different take on it.

I think the main problem James is the Americans are not mature enough to be in charge of the vastly superior military machine they possess. It is rather like inviting a four year old to go and play with a loaded AK47 .....

The majority of Americans are in my opinion Insular, paranoid and myopic. They are the main reason why the world (in particular the middle east) is the way it is. I could go on for a long time about this political and economic nightmare they are fostering but I like short and simple. They should get their heads out of their own $%^&s and smell the coffee.

We all paid the US handsomely for our liberty, and some. As for our special relationship? Its $%^&. I think 'quid pro quo' always leans the US's way and that may come back to haunt them, thats my opinion not a generalisation. They should all get out a bit more, is that a generalisation ?

The yanks save our bacon: only on the 'silver screen'. Surely they only entered the war 2 years after the allies had taken on the Germans +
If Pearl Harbour hadn't happened the Yanks would still bew sitting on the fence and no war films would ever have been made

Scottie,

I've just looked up this quote from Winston Churchill as I couldn't remember the exact wording.


You can always trust the Americans. In the end they will do the right thing, after they have eliminated all the other possibilities.

I think it about sums it up.


On the same page I found the quote I found this from the playright Harold Pinter -

The crimes of the United States have been systematic, constant, vicious, remorseless, but very few people have ever talked about them. You have to hand it to America. It has exercised quite a clinical manipulation of power worldwide while masquerading as a force for universal good. It is a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis.

Those two of course don't count, being just 'Little Englanders " ( four legs good, two legs bad, baaah ), but these quotes were also there -

This is from Joseph Sobram, an American journalist -

Most Americans aren't the sort of citizens the Founding Fathers expected; they are contented serfs. Far from being active critics of government, they assume that its might makes it right

And this from Richard Mynick, another US citizen -

Today's America is no democracy — it's a degenerating tyranny, disfigured by its military-industrial-governmental cancer. Our people are increasingly ashamed and terrified of their government, and rightly so, because we have no control over it, and it's become a deceitful monstrous danger to us and to the health of the planet. We're not 'The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.' To the contrary: We, the people, are on our knees, cringing and whimpering in dismay and confusion, prostrate before the forces that have betrayed us.

It seems not everyone is in awe of the USA's supposed monopoly on being in the right, all the time.

As if fat waddling Americans could, but don't forget, as part of Thanksatan Day:

It is every American's duty to partake in the en-mass Deadly Sin of Gluttony. So much so that many hundred will die this very day as a direct result of Gluttony - all sacrificed through Sin at their own dinning table. It its own way, it is tragic.

But in this way you worship Satan with your bodies, despite praising Jesus with your words.

As ever, the actions betray the words.

PTL.

Yes this is very sad Declan. More Americans die yearly, relative to population, due to obesity - caused conditions, than any other country in the world ...

But fair dues Luois we're a close second!

Yes but it estimated that if Americans get much fatter, their combined weight could make the entire North American continent sink - this would make them very prone to flloding due to Global Warming - that itself caused by their misuse of gas guzzling SUVs ....

Hail Satan, crown him King of all Kings of this earth & beyond, Hail Satan

Andrew,

When I hear people in the UK making condescending comments about the US, assuming they are all somehow materialistic imbeciles devoid of humour and knowledge of the world, I'm dumbfounded.

It seems to stem from twin origins, firstly, offence that Americans are uninterested in a small Island off Europe,“that Tony Blair is your King, right?" and secondly, the conceit that although the British influence in the world is declining, the British none-the-less remain superior morally and intellectually: which brings me to your comments.

1) George Washington kept slave...maybe but the point is that Slavery had a complex history in the US, even in that cradle of racism, Georgia, slavery was first abolished as early as 1735, so to give credit to William Wilburforce for a movement that was up and running long before he was born is silly, he was partially responsible for abolition in the British Empire, but only a little Englander would give him credit for worldwide abolition. http://savannahnow.com/node/448938
2)“I see you again avoid the issue of ethnic cleansing and genocide committed against native americans. Well, I can see why.” Because it is slightly laughable? When cultures collide terrible things have always happened, but it's wrong to suggest the US policy to the Native Americans was any worse the British genocide of the Tasmanian aborigines or a host of other peoples who have all but vanished off the world, only a blinkered little Englander would suggest so.
3)“Apartheid was modelled on the US system which was in place at the time of its conception, 1948.”?? South Africa was a colony of which country? Racism in South Africa was institutionalized under whose rule? Or was Gandi a figment of my imagination? Or does it all stem from little old England?
4) There are profound influences left by the British Empire many of them positive, but to suggest they were born out of“a fight for freedom”and that therefore the UK is the country that has done most“in this world in the fight for freedom, good governance and equality" is palpably absurd.

Americans, largely, the property board loonies certainly excepted, are wonderful people, kind, polite, well-educated, considerate people. And I'm reasonably sure that this is at least partly a reflection of the founding principles of the nation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

I am also absolutely certain that your comment that“America's birth as a nation founded on freedom and equality is complete lies”is not only wrong but is born out of little Englander mentality.

James,

I'm not accepting the "Little Englander" badge you are attempting to pin on me, it doesn't fit.

1) The British Royal Navy, under the direction of Wilburforce, ended the transatlantic slave trade.
They did it by force. It happened.
The USA fought a war against Britain in response. It happened.

2) I don't think the native Americans would find the genocide committed against them laughable, would they ?
I never made a 'whos genocide was worse' comparison anyway, I said the USA took part in ethnic cleansing and genocide against native Americans. Many American citizens are of the same belief as I on this issue.

3) I take it you never read the article I posted, because what you have wrote here is just total rubbish. Your inclusion of a reference to Ghandi leads me to believe your knowledge consists of watching the film of the same name and nothing more.
I'll spell it out then you can read up on the subject -
Apartheid was introduced in 1948 by an independent South Africa. It was largely modelled on the system in many Southern American States.
That is not a little Englander statement, it is what happened.

4) I never said the British Empire was built in the name of freedom, but as you yourself conceed its legacy is there for all to see and there is more good than bad in that legacy.

Palpably absurd ?If you think there is another Country that has achieved more then please name it and tell me of its achievements.

I'm sure I can agree with you that the ' polite, well educated, considerate people ' from America are very nice. The other ones we'll forget about, eh ?

As did the founding fathers, when they forgot to include natives and blacks in their free nation.

Andrew,

Rather than debating all the points each time let's deal with them one at a time. The first one is slavery:

The abolition of slavery in the Northern Atlantic was a gradual on-going process. For example, Pennsylvania banned slavery in 1780, long before Wilberforce. New York and the French abolished slavery in the 18th century but it was't until1834 that the British Empire ended slavery. The US banned the importation of slaves around the same time as the UK. Only little englanders think Wilberforce was responsible for the end of slavery and the slave trade because they are the only one's who can't see the vaste expanses of the world. Japan abolished Slavery in 1587!

So to say the“Britain ended the worldwide slave trade some 60 years earlier, by force”shows a total failure to understand the historical dynamic and certainly the nuances involved.

The important question is does the existence of slavery automatically mean that the US constitution is “lies”? I don't think it does. Many of mankind's noble developments have been in slave owning societies, Ancient Athens was a slave owning society as were the Romans, as was that paragon of nations that you keep holding up – the British Empire. Slavery was of its time and place the US civic leaders deserve much credit for its abolition.

I am not sure the US ever abolished slavery. It may have just turned into a different type. They became the Policemen of the World - They could have WMD (lots) - lesser countries like the UK could have some WMD, but not as much as the US. Some countries particularily those like Iraq under Sadam, who had wound up the US President - could have no WMD - when they said they had none the US called them liers, although in fact they had not got a clue if there was WMD there or not, and came in with Shock and Awe. Their puppet Tony just went along. In fact the US forces their own form of Democracy on countries they chose, often by military action. That is really nothing but a subtle form of slavery - it never went away ...

James,

I said Wilburforce's policies ended the Atlantic slave trade.
The Atlantic is an Ocean and the trade was carried out by ships.
The Royal Navy boarded ships carrying slaves and freed the slaves. The USA objected to its ships being boarded and declared war on Britain.

You can throw as much smoke as you like by naming individual states banning slaves on varying dates, but that is what I said and I believe it to be largely accurate.

You can get all sniffy and talk about dynamics and nuances if you like, but my statement regarding Britain ending the transatlantic slave trade was a response to the total nonsense you came out with when you said the American civil war was fought by the USA to end slavery, as though the USA was some heavenly force ridding the world of all its evils.
I was pointing out that other countries had already ended slavery, and some had done more than others in this pursuit.


Right, lets have a go with the dates shall we.

In 1780 Pennsylvania did not ban slavery. It passed an act for the gradual abolition of slavery. I think there is a slight difference, isn't there ?
Individual American colonies may have ended slavery at varying times, but the USA as a whole did not end slavery until 1865.

That's right the land of the free kept slaves until 1865.

So how does this compare with other powers of the day ?
Well, revolutionary France ended slavery in 1794, but in 1802 when Britain handed back Martinique it was re-introduced. In fact Napoleon re-introduced slavery in 4 colonies.
It was 1834 when France banned slavery throughout its empire.

Now for the evil empire, Britain.
In 1772 slavery was banned in Britain itself.
In 1807 the abolition of slavery act, relating to the slave trade, enabled Wilburforce to use the Royal Navy to board ships off the West African coast and free slaves. Britain even set up a colony for them to live in. This largely ended the transatlantic slave trade and was done by force. It resulted in war between Britain and the USA.
In 1833 slavery was abolished throughout the British Empire.


The important dates on the march to freedom are surely these.

1833 - British total abolition
1834 - French total abolition
1865 - US total abolition

This is why I become so annoyed when it is shouted so loudly that the USA is the land of the free and has given hope to the world.
Whilst the USA has clearly always been on the same path as the other powers in the march to freedom and equality it simply has not been the leader.
The timeline proves it.

If you want more videos to watch other than Ghandi, which you have already seen, I suggest Roots and To Kill a Mocking Bird.

To Kill a Mocking Bird is one of my favourite books.
If you read it you will probably see the Country the South African leaders envisaged when they conceived apartheid in 1948.
( 18 years before Bobby Kennedy spoke on the issue in 1966 and 42 years after British colonial rule ended in 1906 )

James, if a newly formed Country declares itself to be the 'land of the free' where 'everyone is born equal', but persecutes its native population and keeps slaves there has to be lies somewhere, doesn't there ?

THE PAST IS JUST THAT=THE PAST!!! IT IS YOUR FUTURE YOU NEED THINK ABOUT!!!THINK!

Bible Quotations:

a) "An eye for an eye"
b) "Turn the other cheek"

Explain .....

EYE FOR AN EYE=OLD COVENANT BEFORE JESUS, TURN THE OTHER CHEEK=NEW COVENANT.

Gizmo,

I believe we need to study the past to avoid making the same mistakes in the future.
The past also tells us how we came to the point we are at and why others feel about us as they do.

AND YOU THINK.
IF THE PAST IS JUST THE PAST, WHY DO YOU OBSESS OVER BOOKS WRITTEN THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO ?

LOOK TO YOUR OWN FUTURE AND YOU THINK - FOR YOURSELF !

andrew s

as a follow-up to my post below

The idea that England is a beacon of democracy/ liberty/ etc for the world is even more daft than the USA making the same claim.

England's chief export has been for millennia: death.

England's entire foreign policy up to 1950 something was: send johnny foreigner to an early grave.

Try this for an exercise:

Name 3 European countries that England has never been at war with.

How about 5 non European?

All colonies count as having been at war, BTW. Yes. Marching in with guns and shooting people until the population is compliant counts.

Here is another exercise:

Name an ongoing problem hotspot of carnage where a large degree of the ethnic tensions cannot be directly put down to the way that England redrew the map of the area.

Iraq? Afghanistan? Pakistan? Israel? The Balkans?

Northern Ireland looks like it may finally be shaking off history. Maybe.

But perhaps Ireland itself is the best example of the full truth ...

England is good place to live.

But as far as England being a global force for freedom and democracy?

You are having a $%^& laugh ...

Declan,

I'd like to point out my last post was written before I read your post addressed to me.

I really must try and keep up. LOL

Yes, flag worshiping.
I did choose my quotes from US citizens carefully to illustrate this, and also the unthinking nature of much of the USA's population.

Andrew:

You wrote this..."because I wasn't putting forward a case for Britain being the leading light" But earlier you had written this...
"I think you will find Britain... is the Country that has done most in this world in the fight for freedom, good governance and equality.”

This sounds like a belief in leading lightness to me, whch together with its denial suggests little Englanderness.And really
having looked at this through foreign eyes, including all the examples you brought up, such as UK ending the world wide slave trade...well I have to agree with Declan that this really is a laughable position.

However, Declan, is off elsewhere. He makes specific points about the US being up to no good in South America and American citizens just generally being thick.

There are many acknowledge drawbacks in American interventionalism, but it is also, and much more often, a force for good. Remember it was the US that forced Israel, the UK and France to stop the invasion of Egypt in 1956.

The fear of socialism may have lead to poor decision making in South America but it also freed hundreds of millions around the world from Communism...all of which is beside the point really, because it is the second point that is really dodgy.

America is profoundly Democratic, and a central aspect of that is that they have a system design to allow intelligence to shine. All the leading research that has taken place in the world since the Second World War has centered on America, they have a system that makes excellent thrive. American intelligence and excellent is a defining characteristic of the last 50 years. So to dismiss Americans as stupid is mikeskness.

I really hope you haven't been confusing openness, honesty, inquisitiveness and a general lack of deceit amongst Americans as a sign of ignorance. Or even dismissing an entire civilization on the basis of a couple of acquaintances.

The US really is the embodiment of the quote that standing up for an ideal or to strike out against injustic...sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.”

James

To say that US has been "up to no good in South America" -

That is an understatement and a half.

I am guessing that you have never really heard of the SOA. If not I encourage you to look it up, but I have to warn you, it is stomach churning. Properly. When you combine that with a lot of the other stuff they get up to (and there is plenty of do$%^&entary evidence of both direct and indirect actions - including (directly) setting off car bombs in mid-east to try to assassinate "undesirables": straight form the terrorists' textbook) it becomes stomach churning in the same way that the holocaust is.

As for stupidity: I call it like I see it.

Within work I have met many Americans that I cannot even come close to matching, in terms of skill and ability.

This same kind of thing over spills into sports too. Americans will hand you your ass. There is no such thing as playing for fun. I am not saying this is bad, I am saying it is culturally different.

But both work and sports have value in American society.

Knowledge, in and of itself, does not.

If it is part of your job to be knowledgeable, you will be.

But ignorance, in its truest sense, abounds.

"they have a system that makes excellent thrive"

Yes, they do. But that does not mean they foster intelligent thinking in the populace.

Have you heard of Edward Bernays and do you know what the "Engineering of consent" is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bern...


He was instrumental in forming policy of governance that lives on to this day.

In basic terms, things like the US constitution, the Gettysburg Address, etc. are the marketing materials of the USA.

Quite brilliant stuff.

And life in America is good for Americans.

But he said that keeping the populace poorly educated and unquestioning made the whole thing work better.

I encourage you to research both the above. Some truly shocking $%^& out there.

Mikeisheness - I can understand why you wold say that, but I stand by my observation. God knows I have met many of them, and while you could go drinking or have a BBQ with almost all of them, getting an informed opinion about *anything* "current", or historical, was almost as impossible as getting an informed opinion of anything to do with the EU is in the UK ...

I think you will find its the lower orders of Englishmen have the negative aspects you detail. We of aristocratic, and indeed noble birth are the most accepting of different class attitudes, however crude, and yet the preservation of uniquely British high standards. We have no problem with Americans, as such, accepting their inate immaturity and indeed highly melodramatic nature derive purely from a very young country, it is not their fault. What we do blame them for is not listening to us British in matters such as the shambles in Iraq that they alone created, when our views are far more wise, conditioned by our vastly greater experience in world affairs,

Louis,

I thought you aristocrats were French ?

No, we came from Normandy with William being legal advisors to him, then also later with the Protestant Hugeonots in the 1500s. Marriage into the remote Royals, several high Titles, and here we are today. One of the most respected British families. Can trace lineage back to the French King Rollo in the AD 400s. High Class families as ours, have this of course because of the meticulous Family Book. Latterly mainly Knights, etc. In todays world of course all that is left is the Arms, and hereditaries. The British aristocracy exists of course, mainly hidden, but in a modern Democracy, its really more of pure academic interest .....

In fairness they didn't want to pay taxes if they couldn't elect their own MPs, which is fair enough.

Let's not let any disagreement about "America: the reality" vs "America: the paradigm" cloud the real issue here -

Americans have come on to this site to spread unwanted religious propaganda.

Today is a day that these same retarded fatties will sit down to eat until they can hardly breathe, thereby committing a "mortal" sin.

It is this kind of blatant and unquestioning Hypocrisy that makes America Satan's favorite nation.

Satan Bless America.

Way to go Declan! Awsome!!!

I believe the words your looking for are 'Taxation without representation'

As for all this thanksatan rubbish, I'll let the man himself tell it like it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGR4SFOim...

At the risk of sounding like the other religous nut jobs on here:

The greatest trick the devil played was convincing the world he didn't exist.

One more thing.

"Remember, there's not I in Team America"

:) Brilliant!

TA,

"The greatest trick the devil played was convincing the world he didn't exist. "

...or he just doesn't exist and it's just man who needs someone to blame.

Damn you this is a property board, now....

Praise Santa
ho ho ho

It's not much of a jump from Santa Clause to Satan's claws, as the present Americanised consumer version of Christmas shows us all.


And the red version of Satan, sorry Santa - It was invented by those wonderful drinks people, the ones who supply carbonated cola drinks ( without cola nuts )

Baaaaahh... (humbug)