Yes it is a great shame the first Americans, who today detest Colonisation, in fact entered a country from abroad which was already fully occupied, then removed those same people almost completely, then proclaimed that country the "Land of the Free". Its a strange thing to celebrate?

Yes but those settlers were English!
At that the USA did not exist, however I suppose that the full extermination of the native Indians didn't start until after the War of Independence so we Brits can wash our hands of that one!

Very tenuous argument Sim. The Founding Fathers were partly British but it was they who started removing the Native Americans. The War of Independance happened partly because the "to be" Americans were far more anti Indians than were the British Government. So America was formed on a gross injustice, not something ever to be proud of?

I thought the war of independence started because the Americans didn't want to contribute towards the cost of us fighting France on their behalf for the previous 50 years.
That and they wanted to be free - free to keep slaves and commit genocide against Native Americans.

Hail Satan

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate...we can not consecrate...we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government: of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth

James the Yanks saved our bacon in WW2, and indeed probably most of the world. But is more recent years they have gone wrong. You can count them - Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (twice), Afganistan. Not enough thought of the consequences of military action - no exit strategies - fighting risky asymetric warfare - just not enough thought. Sadam apart from rhetoric never posed any risk to the US or UK, there was no need for the war - it was bound up in unwise policies by the US that so many died.

Louis,

There is an anti-American visceral reflex that too often kicks in when Europeans debate America, and even though numerous rationales are presented to substantiate such feelings- wars, culturelessness even the bizarre view that all Americans are somehow dumb – these claims remain largely mindless.

The United States is a fantastic embodiment of the human spirit and the best vehicle for its expression that mankind has yet come up with, and the words below are extraordinary, the reason that we take for granted now is because for the best part of the last century Americans have sort to ensure our continued liberty:

"and that government: of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth"

Although I understand if you nearly got bombed by them you may have a slightly different take on it.

I think the main problem James is the Americans are not mature enough to be in charge of the vastly superior military machine they possess. It is rather like inviting a four year old to go and play with a loaded AK47 .....

The majority of Americans are in my opinion Insular, paranoid and myopic. They are the main reason why the world (in particular the middle east) is the way it is. I could go on for a long time about this political and economic nightmare they are fostering but I like short and simple. They should get their heads out of their own $%^&s and smell the coffee.

We all paid the US handsomely for our liberty, and some. As for our special relationship? Its $%^&. I think 'quid pro quo' always leans the US's way and that may come back to haunt them, thats my opinion not a generalisation. They should all get out a bit more, is that a generalisation ?

The yanks save our bacon: only on the 'silver screen'. Surely they only entered the war 2 years after the allies had taken on the Germans +
If Pearl Harbour hadn't happened the Yanks would still bew sitting on the fence and no war films would ever have been made

Scottie,

I've just looked up this quote from Winston Churchill as I couldn't remember the exact wording.


You can always trust the Americans. In the end they will do the right thing, after they have eliminated all the other possibilities.

I think it about sums it up.


On the same page I found the quote I found this from the playright Harold Pinter -

The crimes of the United States have been systematic, constant, vicious, remorseless, but very few people have ever talked about them. You have to hand it to America. It has exercised quite a clinical manipulation of power worldwide while masquerading as a force for universal good. It is a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis.

Those two of course don't count, being just 'Little Englanders " ( four legs good, two legs bad, baaah ), but these quotes were also there -

This is from Joseph Sobram, an American journalist -

Most Americans aren't the sort of citizens the Founding Fathers expected; they are contented serfs. Far from being active critics of government, they assume that its might makes it right

And this from Richard Mynick, another US citizen -

Today's America is no democracy — it's a degenerating tyranny, disfigured by its military-industrial-governmental cancer. Our people are increasingly ashamed and terrified of their government, and rightly so, because we have no control over it, and it's become a deceitful monstrous danger to us and to the health of the planet. We're not 'The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.' To the contrary: We, the people, are on our knees, cringing and whimpering in dismay and confusion, prostrate before the forces that have betrayed us.

It seems not everyone is in awe of the USA's supposed monopoly on being in the right, all the time.

As if fat waddling Americans could, but don't forget, as part of Thanksatan Day:

It is every American's duty to partake in the en-mass Deadly Sin of Gluttony. So much so that many hundred will die this very day as a direct result of Gluttony - all sacrificed through Sin at their own dinning table. It its own way, it is tragic.

But in this way you worship Satan with your bodies, despite praising Jesus with your words.

As ever, the actions betray the words.

PTL.

Yes this is very sad Declan. More Americans die yearly, relative to population, due to obesity - caused conditions, than any other country in the world ...

But fair dues Luois we're a close second!

Yes but it estimated that if Americans get much fatter, their combined weight could make the entire North American continent sink - this would make them very prone to flloding due to Global Warming - that itself caused by their misuse of gas guzzling SUVs ....

Hail Satan, crown him King of all Kings of this earth & beyond, Hail Satan

Declan,

"This same kind of thing over spills into sports too. Americans will hand you your ass. There is no such thing as playing for fun. I am not saying this is bad, I am saying it is culturally different."

Oh I'd say it was a bad thing. I've exchanged views on this on a US sports training forum (oh yes, I do more that just this comedy site ;-) ). Even the US posters (admittedly not really your mainstream conventional sportsmen but hardcore alternative types so perhaps their views aren't typical) admitted US society encourages the elite or at least potential winners and the remainer become couch potato lard $%^&. OK, admittedly a bit of a generalisation but Europeans are much more likely to be social sportsmen. I'd say this was a bad thing for the general public, they can feel good that their sport stars are cuffing the world but they are killing themselves with inactivity.

Apart from that I agree with you and well done for posting some sense to the squabbling lads - I thought to try myself but couldn't quite find the right tack.

HOW WRONG YOU ARE!! HERE IN THE "VILLAGE" OF 18,000 PEOPLE WE HAVE 450 IN THE TENNIS CLUB, SEVEN GOLF COURSES, SWIMMING,GYM WEIGHT TRANING 30 MILES OF BUSY HIKING TRAILS.

Is your village of 18000 typical of other 300m yankers?

If yanks are so sporty why are yanks most obese country in world? lol.

Oh and why are you an obese god spamming $%^& who can't see past his own doorstep?

James,

I admitted some of my earlier posts were written in haste, but I think I clarified my position regarding slavery.
I made clear that my belief is that the Royal Navy largely ended the transatlantic slave trade by force, and that the USA declared war on Britain for doing so.
You haven't responded to this ! ??
I also made clear the timelines for ending slavery and pointed out that out of the USA, Britain and France, the USA was the last to end the practice, ending it 32 years after Britain and 31 years after France.

I do actually believe Britain has done more in the pursuit of democracy, equality and good governance than any other modern nation.
Britain was the largest world power for a very long time and has shaped much of the political world we all live in today.
That is not to say I believe the British empire was a force for good, or it was always - or even ever, the right course to take.
It is to say its legacy is a better world than the one Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm, Hitler, Mussolini, Horohito or Stalin would have us live in.
This is not a 'little Englander' stance, it is merely observational.

With reference to Declan - Lord Gizmy has said the past is just the past. I countered that if you do not learn the past you do not learn from your mistakes, or understand why people think of you as they do.
If you read Declans opinions on Britain without historical perspective I believe the conclusion would be that he is an anti- English xenophobe. However, having learned a little of Anglo-Irish history I can easily adjust my perception of his viewpoint.
To paraphrase my favourite book - get inside his skin and crawl around for a little while.
Having done this I can adjust how I receive his words according to his perspective.
I suggest you crawl around for a while in the skin of a native American, or an American black person, and $%^&s how free the Country you so obviously adore really is.


Well anyway, you say that having looked at all this through foreign eyes you have to say mine is a laughable position ?

Is that the best you can come up with ? You really aren't offering anything are you ?
You keep coming up with little snippets, which are usually wrong anyway, and then you ignore every point I put to you.
Like the slavery timeline.
Like South African governance and the apartheid timeline.
Like the genocide against Native Americans - just a clash of cultures I think you said.
And you have given no response to my assertation that a Country declaring itself the 'land of the free' whilst keeping slaves and persecuting minority groups is telling lies.

Andrew,

Living overseas I too easily rise to the bait of little Englanderness. Too often I come across English people whose luggage has more of a cultural experience than they have. When you listen to them in China complaining that they can’t get proper Chinese food like at home, you marvel. Or when they assume an arrogance that can only be acquired through total incomprehension of their environment, I think it should be pointed out

Partly this smallness comes through a poor understanding of history and a conviction that somehow it was better when the British ruled– you certainly get that in Hong Kong.

So I’ll retract the littler Englander comment because you are not these people, and it is much easier to fire out frustration on the internet than a couple of drunks in a bar late at night.

I think we probably have not too dissimilar views about the British past, but where we differ is on the interpretation of America.

Firstly, I’m naïve enough to believe that the founding ideals of the Republic or those that have developed since are in anyway compromised by any actions that have taken place. Just as Rousseau being a $%^& does not in anyway take from the importance of his work.

Secondly, I don’t think the individual examples you gave paint the United States in a particularly bad light. We discussed slavery and I think we can agree that slavery was everywhere and the abolition took place in many places before the US (and the UK for that matter) and that although many parts of the States were very late in freeing slaves many parts were very early.

UK played a very active role it stopping the Atlantic slave trade but the United States outlawed the importation of slaves at almost the same time as the UK. The primary difference seems to be the total disregard of the UK to the sovereignty of other nations shipping, while the US respected international law (OK this is stretching it a bit).

I didn’t want to get into a debate on racism in South Africa. The Boers left the Cape in 1836(?) mainly because of slavery, and the formalizing of apartheid was only a continuation of long history of suppressing the civil rights of the black peoples, American racism played very little role in this. The reason we have adopted the word Aparthied into English is because there was no equivalent in the English speaking world.

Genocide is a very emotive word, when used in discussion about Native Americans it becomes an entirely political issue.

Laughable position was used in an earlier post, I used the phrase again because I fina English anti-americanism largely laughable.

Declan,

Evidence abounds of bad American policy decisions and the terrible effect they’ve had round the world, and also of American individuals acting in violation of the laws of America, host countries and against human decency.

You choose SOA.as an example of this. I had a look at a website called SOA Watch, who campaign against the School of the Americas. And what should be most striking is that this website exists.

There will always be groups of people who behave abominably, whether in the misguided belief of their religion, country or out of pure badness. But the US has developed a system of government and a constitution that enables the people of America to police their government.

And to stop such abuses. This is the wonder of it all.

No such thing exists in Russia, China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Iran and hundreds of other places where shadowy organizations get up to no good with little fear of being exposed. Even in many countries with traditions of democracy, there are insufficient controls on the state.

What do you think the French get up to in North Africa? Well, I doubt we’ll ever really know the true story. Well maybe we might because the world is starting to follow America’s lead; thanks to them we have a freedom of information act.

Now I’m off to read up about Edward Bernays, which looks interesting, and think of reasons why you are wrong about American stupidity.

PS. As this is the property board.
1) I don’t have a mortgage in the UK,
2) Have no problem with large deposit
3) Don’t have a job in the UK or proof of UK income.
4) Have proof of overseas income.
5) Would like a fixed rate.
Coming to the UK next week, where would be the best to go and look for a mortgage at present?

James S

It might be possible for me to sum up my feelings on the USA thus:

It is precisely BECAUSE of the discrepancy between the USA that Americans focus on: the greatest nation on earth with the highest ideals ...

And some of the things that they do ...

AND that if your average American actually looked at the evidence they would be aghast at the things being done by America, in America's name ...

If I may use an analogy:

Basically, I will never be able to get over the label saying 100% beef steak, and seeing the $%^& they actually put in the burger.

I feel compelled to say "there is $%^& in the burger".

If you say, "yes, but it is 90 something % beefsteak, and the packaging is really nice" that can't distract me from the fact that I know that it is not 100% beef steak but they yanks believe it is because it says so on the box.

To mix my metaphors ..

The USA does not "do what it says on the tin".

And the annoying thing is that Americans are not only unaware that this is the case, they will tell you that it *does* do what it says on the tin.

I do not hate Americans. My comment about finding the majority of them pretty stupid has to be taken in context - I am a $%^& genius, obviously, and I think most people are $%^&.

Have fun reading about Bernays!

He is one of the few people that have managed to make me feel a mix of hatred and admiration. Mostly the former, I have to add.

James s

Re: mortgage

I would say that your cir$%^&tances mean that you would probably be best off phoning specific mortgage providers and asking them if they "do that sort of thing"

You are unlikely to find an off-the-peg mortgage that would suit you. Or more accurately, suit the provider.

Do you have a long standing account with a bank or BS?

You could try a broker, but if you get a rubbish one they will waste your time with mortgages that you're never going to get.

And do not go near Mortgages linked to Endowments or similar. Best idea to find a good Financial Advisor with experience of the Mortgage Market. Of course given that do go to RBS because part of your Mortgage will come to me as a Shareholder ....

Just google and trawl the net for a bit, that will give you an idea of rates. If you have half a brain and know your cir$%^&tances for the foreseeable future then an IFA is not required imho. If you cant tell the difference between an Interest only and Repayment then an IFA is probably needed. As for endowments, I would be most surprised if anyone tried to sell you one, even more so if you bought one. If not repayment then I.O. with the difference going into an investment such as an ISA, Unit trust, pension or whatever plus stand alone insurance on your mortgage amount imho. And of course, all is dependant on your cir$%^&tances.